Show Notes
When everyone said no, radio said yes
Hosts: Neil & Chris
Duration: ~92 minutes
Release: 17 November 2025
Episode Description
Bush's Sixteen Stone shouldn't exist. Dropped by their first label for having "no singles and no album tracks," Gavin Rossdale went back to painting dentists' offices while his debut sat in limbo. Then a tiny record label called Trauma took a chance, American rock radio caught fire, and suddenly the album British critics dismissed as "Nirvana lite" went 6x platinum. Neil and Chris unpack the bizarre journey of an album that conquered the US while being completely ignored at home, from its compressed post-grunge production to the legal battles that followed its success.
This episode digs into the sonic differences between grunge and post-grunge, why British press hated Bush while America couldn't get enough, and how Gavin's first solo-written song, Come Down, became the blueprint for everything that followed. Neil shares his obsession with Little Things and the elusive vinyl hunt, while Chris rediscovers Machine Head live. They explore the album's refusal to use click tracks, its deliberately cryptic binary artwork, and the uncomfortable truth that sometimes persistence matters more than critical approval.
What You'll Hear:
- The Trauma Records story: how two surgeons-turned-label-owners broke Bush in the US, then sued Interscope for $100 million
- Post-grunge production decoded: compression, radio loudness wars, and why this doesn't sound like Seattle
- Gavin Rossdale's lyric-writing process, inspired by David Bowie's cut-up technique and poetic fragments
- Why the UK embraced Britpop's AC30s and semi-acoustics while rejecting American Marshall stacks
- The one crossover: Stiltskin's Inside as Britain's sole post-grunge hit
- Album artwork mysteries, 16-stone dating disasters, and why the 30th anniversary reissue changed the cover color
Featured Tracks & Analysis:
Everything Zen kicks off with a guitar solo, a bold statement that sets the tone for an album dripping with confidence despite its chaotic creation. Neil breaks down Little Things as a near-perfect meditation on relationship erosion, the "death by a thousand cuts" captured in octave riffs and layered guitars. Come Down gets dissected both as Gavin's songwriting breakthrough and Chris's live performance memory from a Branston music showcase. Machine Head's lyrical collage approach reveals how fragments and feelings mattered more than narrative coherence. Glycerine emerges as the emotional centerpiece, with Mike Tivy's definitive cover version haunting Chris's memory from their college days.
Tangential Gold:
- Vinyl frustrations: double vinyl "flippy flips," 2014 reissue pricing at £150, and begging American friends for original pressings
- Billy Corgan's philosophy on chasing things you'll never feel complete owning
- Arguing with ChatGPT in the bath about what actually defines post-grunge
- The Donald Trump-REM vocal similarity revelation
- Super gluing yourself to a step ladder during DIY disasters
- Blood Bowl League commitments and painting Warhammer with Mike Tivy
Why This Matters:
Sixteen Stone represents the moment when American rock radio diverged completely from British taste, creating parallel scenes that barely acknowledged each other. While the UK obsessed over Blur vs Oasis and semi-acoustic guitars, the US was building a post-grunge ecosystem of compressed, arena-ready rock that prioritized hooks and thickness over rawness. This album crystallizes that split. It's also a masterclass in perseverance, proof that critical consensus means nothing if you find your audience. Bush got savaged by NME and Melody Maker, told Gavin couldn't sing, dismissed as derivative copycats. Six million sales later, none of that mattered.
The episode reveals how production choices shape genre definition. Post-grunge isn't just grunge-after-grunge, it's a sonic philosophy: tighter, more commercial, compressed for radio dominance, unashamed of choruses and clean production. Sixteen Stone sits at that crossroads, polished enough to dominate American rock radio but still raw enough to feel urgent. It's an album born from rejection, rescued by persistence, and vindicated by connection with millions who didn't care what critics thought.
Perfect for: Post-grunge historians tracking the genre's US dominance, vinyl collectors cursing limited UK pressings, anyone who remembers when Bush was inescapable on American radio but invisible in Britain, producers studying loudness wars and compression techniques, songwriters interested in lyrical collage methods, fans of Live/Candlebox/Silverchair's era, people who've argued with AI about music genres, and anyone who's ever been told their work isn't good enough by gatekeepers who turned out to be spectacularly wrong.
Transcript
Show transcript Hide transcript
No matching lines.
Speaker0:00
I don't believe that Elvis is dead Elvis is dead I love this album we're doing Bush 16 stone it's Riffology I'm Neil Chris you're Chris brilliant we're in that's good that's best intro I've ever done nailed it yeah sort of that's it I think we're peaked we have thank you for coming thank you for coming because we keep having weeks off and you keep coming back occasionally yeah and I wanted to say something can I say something I want to say the thing I wanted to say was that if you're here like the show's getting bigger now yeah but we're still not massive no so that means the algorithm has chosen you yeah to hear us yeah yeah yeah and that makes you dead special yeah you are special you've been chosen you have by the robots you have been chosen and the algorithm has shown you us or has you shown you us and we're here and we're here in your ears yeah or yeah definitely in your ears yeah so thank you for having us thank you for having us in your ears and you've obviously selected Bush which means you are American yes yes yeah yeah because no one liked Bush in England no no we liked I liked it I like Bush in England this is one of my favourite records the only thing I don't like about this album is it was never bloody released on vinyl here so if you want vinyl copy of this album yeah it's about one million pounds and you have to have it shipped and then everybody on Discord goes I'm not shipping it to the UK even if you do pay me so you'll never own this album one million pounds yeah and I've got another boat actually while I'm on while I'm on a yeah that's two you said one thing that's two things well it's all about the same thing really so while I'm on my soapbox about the vinyls of this right it was reissued in 2014 yeah they're 150 quid you're joking no no and that's a good copy yeah and then it was reissued again in 2024 yeah because it was the 30th anniversary yes yeah and I like that it's really good I'm totally down with having the anniversary copy yeah that's a double vinyl yeah now I know the collectors like the double vinyl really gets on my tits why do you like double vinyl? because it's like there's only two tracks per side and if I'm like coding or whatever I like to put on a record and then leave it on yeah yeah and I don't want to be having to turn around every 30 seconds surely there's an app to my record player my record player is really manual yeah and I remember as a kid like in the 70s yeah we had an automatic thing it flipped over it did all that you know it sounded like someone was like hissing at you all the time but it did flip the flippy flips yeah yeah yeah but I don't like that so if you're if you're a band if you're a record company just can it with the double vinyl yeah stupid yeah yeah yeah do you know what I mean if I had to turn it over in less than 10 minutes yeah it's stupid but you could you could design because you just had the flippy flips yeah and I actually police car yeah police car outside yeah flippy flips is a really good brand name for something that would turn over your vinyl flippy flips yeah be good wouldn't it have you got flippy flips flippy flips on your vinyl you've got to have flippy flips on your vinyls anyway and as pretty as the as pretty as the 30th anniversary is because they do it in clear which I like clear vinyl and they're in red and I like that too yeah it's really nice yeah they did a few things that I dislike the cover is not the same oh no don't like that and why would you do that I don't know it's like a different colour it's like I don't know it's like a slightly different red no don't like that and I don't like so basically I love the album I don't like anything about trying to get hold of a copy of it the original version is stupid even a message from one of my friends in the states and because he's coming over in April I'll bring a 16 stone with you yeah I want that and I want Superstar Car Wash yeah and can you get Superstar Car Wash in the states no well cheaper than here right so it'll be like a hundred quid cheaper yeah than I would get it here in the UK so I thought one day you're going to get it yeah one day you're definitely going to get it and you know what you're going to have what a small sense of emptiness didn't you oh yeah that's true yeah you love it and then you think I don't know I don't know what am I going to do well Billy Corgan talked about that this week did you see him in the YouTube short in the video short not the YouTube short it might have been a YouTube short in one of the shorts basically saying that we spend our entire lives chasing stuff and you're always it's always oh when I get that thing I'll be better when I get that thing I'll be better it will make me feel I'll feel complete yeah and then when you get the thing yeah don't feel complete and then you go off and chase the next thing yeah yeah and it was interesting I thought it was a real no it makes sense it does doesn't it so I don't think you could ever get I don't think you're actually ever allowed a copy of Superstar Garbosh life is over yeah I don't no because when you're done that's life complete and I don't I think you'll lose all momentum then it doesn't like I don't know I'm not particularly materialistic I don't really care I don't it's not it's because I like I want to be able to listen to it if that makes sense like that ritualistic thing of taking it out and putting it on the record player it's how it makes me feel it's not having the thing it's not like it's not about yeah no it's not like ticking the box I'm at that point in my my stage of life now I don't chase my career I'm not bothered about being promoted I don't really I don't I just I'm at that point where I just kind of think I've probably got fewer years left than I've had yes and so I like making the most of where I am at the minute but it's very much for what it does for me now do you know what I mean and I want I want those records because I know that I'll enjoy listening I know I'll really enjoy listening to them yeah I still feel that horrific sense of emptiness inside but I can do it while I'm listening to the albums yeah I'm going to say it as well this album it's got one of my favourite songs in the world on it which one is it ever it's Little Things Little Things and I love it I love I love I love I think the song is like virtually perfect I think it's one of those I don't know it's just so beautifully crafted yeah I love it and I love what it's about yeah so it's about like the lyric and there's the little things that kill and it's all about getting superstar car washing it's the little things sorry I'll reach the sky every night loaded on wrong and further from right spinning around to howling moons because they're always there whatever I do the river is loaded I've been there today to get some questions she tells me again I'd die in your arms if you were dead too here comes a lie we will always be true going up and coming down scratch away the little things that kill the little things that kill tear out of my brain dark and hold on the little things that kill the little things that kill the bigger you kill the bigger you get the boss I deny them the best I forget the cupboard is empty we really need food summer is winter and you always knew going up and coming down going up and coming down scratch away the little things that kill the little things that kill tear out of my brain I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down I can't hold on and coming down It's about relationships and how it's often and most often the death by a thousand cuts that kills them it's not these big things it's the little things but it's like the constant little things that annoy you or somebody does that irritates you or whatever and that's what does it and I just I don't know that's just something I mean relationships in general like friendships I just think that there's just something about that that I really liked I just like I love it and I also love it's got Come Down after it Yeah and I don't know those two songs back to back there's just something about that That's really special Come Down is just I did before we did this podcast recorded I do like a music showcase where there's sort of six artists play in Branston Yeah and I always open up I always get it going and play some songs With a banger Yeah Well no I do I normally do about 25 minutes Yeah and I chose Come Down Did you? Yeah it was the last song before I finished and I don't think I quite got it because I've probably not played it Yeah yeah yeah for 20 years Wow at least at least It's got a funny I think all of these songs these songs have got like a funny I'm going to say phrasing but I don't know if that's the right thing but it kind of feels the pacing of them feels a little bit Yeah and flowy and they're not I mean I don't think this I don't think a click track has been anywhere near this No no it speeds up it speeds up and slows down and it's oh yes Yeah it really does but I played it and it all it's strange how it all came back Oh did it? So I probably didn't get it It wasn't probably not perfect but in terms of like not playing it for a long time not really probably hearing it you know other than like flipping through it this week and that sort of thing Yeah yeah yeah but there was but it came out and it was like oh Anyone recognise it? No I think that would make me happier I'd be like a bit you know Yeah No I had a really good feeling about it and then I remembered how that song it's a really strange thing to say but I remember how that song used to make me feel Yeah and I was playing it and it took me back to Ben Stones' living room my mate from when we were kids and his mum had a six CD Sony stacker CD changer and I was wanting one of those That's a bit of posh that Yeah yeah exactly so I like we always had like Goodman's or the cheap one Sanyo Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and it was you know Ventura that was the one that I had Sensui yeah I can keep going Yeah and the CDs went round and then eventually I actually ended up with a Sony six CD Yeah stacker CD changer when I was a little bit older so it was kind of like that you know before iPods and before that sort of stuff became a thing but I used to have six CDs going round all night every night Yeah and this was one of them Oh yeah it was one of the records and I don't know if you ever you ever did this but I used to have music on all the time when I was asleep and you'd hear the songs in your sleep and they would feel different and sound different and there would be like a different experience while you're like in a dream or you know that sort of thing Yeah yeah but it's interesting I know people talk about when you want to learn something you know you put it on while you're asleep Yeah it goes into your subconscious and all that I'm not sure how much truth was in that but it was just amazing that obviously that song had embedded itself in there somehow How cool is that? in terms of that but I do remember learning it playing it and there were two different versions of that song so there was a bandy version Yeah that sounded full band Uh huh but then there was also like a version that if I recall had strings Yeah two versions Yeah and I'm I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album I don't know where they both appeared on the album Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud It's taken me all this time to find out what I need I don't wanna come back down from this cloud It's taken me all this, all this time There is no blame, only shame When you beg, you just complain The more I come, the more I try All police are paranoid So am I So is the future So are you Be a creature Do you say Do you do When it all comes down Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud It's taken me all this time to find out what I need Yeah, yeah, yeah I don't wanna come back down from this cloud It's taken me all this, all this time Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Love and hate Get it wrong Cut me right back down Back down to size Sleep a day Let it fade Who else had to take your place? No one knows Never will Mostly me Mostly you What do you say? Do you do? When it all comes down Cause I won't come back down From this crowd It's taken me all this time To find out what I need Yeah, yeah, yeah I don't wanna come back down From this crowd It's taken me all this, all this time What do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you. Calm down. I don't wanna come back down from this crowd. I could always get like studio demo time in London, but I never could get signed and my voice was always used as the reason why I couldn't, why I failed. I was learning, I was learning and I was learning in public and I was failing public and I was, someone asked me yesterday, what's the best piece of advice you ever got during music and I was, I was racking my brains and I was remembering that I once, in my band just before I began Bush, I thought, trying to be really inclusive with the band I was in, I said to the drummer, and we're walking onto the stage, it was the Kingshead pub in Fulham. And we walked up on stage and I was thinking, you know, in the spirit of the band, what should I say to him, hey buddy, is there anything I should, you know, anything I should look out for, he goes, yeah, yeah, watch the high notes. I think the changing moment was when I met Nigel in the band and I used to always write with other people and I was, you know, I'm still not that necessarily a great, a good guitar player. But when I was in between bands and depressed and looking for work, I was contacting different guitar players and suddenly I sat down one day and I said, you know, you're a jerk. If you call yourself a songwriter, you give yourself to music and you study and you want to do this, sit down and write a song with a guitar already. What are you doing? Why are you leaning on people? So I sat down and the first song I ever wrote was a come down. I took it to my guitar player, this guy, and he was a real busy guy and I was just another kid jerk coming along trying to start a band with him and he was making good money doing jingles. So he'd say, I say, you know, do you want to write together? He said, no, no, no, no. I think it's better if you bring songs you've got. I said, yeah, I got one. He didn't realize that was the only one I had. So I brought in come down. He goes, oh, and he put it. He did the demo for me and we put it down and I suddenly was like, that sounds pretty good. Nobody in the UK heard this record. No, at all. No, wasn't played on MTV. It was really only played on American radio and that's what broke it. And that's how people heard about it. And so they did all kinds of stuff like that. There were kind of different versions and other bits and pieces that were happening, but you would hear them on the radio. And then they went, I think they went out on tour with, they went out on tour with this record. Again, in the US and they opened up, it was Alice in Chains. Right. They went out and did a bunch of stuff, but like nothing in the UK. So you wouldn't have heard. The alternate version of Come Down, you wouldn't have heard. Unless you were looking for it. Yes. Yeah. It's also worth pointing out that Gavin Rossdale, who wrote most of the stuff, right? Come Down was the first song he wrote all the way through himself. Yeah. And you're like, what? Not bad, is it? It's not a bad start, that one. How do you even? It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a, like this album, and it starts with everything zen, right? And there's a confidence to it. There's like, it just starts, raging guitar solo, drops in. You were saying before we recorded, like, you start a song with a guitar solo. Yeah. It's the best thing in the world. You made a great statement. Yeah. This is an album. The album starts with a guitar solo. It's not an album with a guitar solo. Yeah. I just think this, I don't know. For me, it's like, there's just something really cool about it. Yeah, yeah. I like that. It's the same with Little Things. If you listen to Little Things, there's like this kind of, I don't know what it is. It's not a guitar solo. It's like, there's a, there's a, there's the main riff and the main song's happening. Yeah. And then there's like another riff happening. It's like swirling underneath it, like from nowhere. Yeah. And I, I just, I love it. I, I, I, I love, I love all that. But, but I think there's a confidence to it. It's a really confident sounding record. I think it's, there's no, I don't know. There's like, there's no missteps in there. There are no bits where you think, oh, you're just trying that out. Yes. Yeah. Everything's like really solid and in the right place. And it's, the, the songs are well written and the production is on key. It's just, everything's mega. And then you hear an interview with Gavin Rostell going, I don't know what I was doing. Yeah. No idea what I was doing. Just threw it together really. And you know, well, I didn't know. And everyone was telling me it was shit. Yeah. Everybody said it was rubbish. Every single person we took it to, not interested, don't care. Even to the point that the record, so they got signed by that record. Label in the Valley. And I've kind of forgotten that. Trauma. Trauma. Yeah. So they get signed by Trauma, right? And, oh, does this, sorry, this is before Trauma. Right. So they get signed before Trauma. Yeah. And so they've got a deal with, was it Disney's part of Disney? Anyway, they got signed with this label. They pull the album together, submit the album, and then they get ripped apart. And the record label are like, there are no singles on this at all. And even worse, there are, there are no album tracks on it. So just go away. So they'd got, they'd got this. And at that point, they were called Future Primitive, I think. Yeah. And on our blog, you'll see there's a cassette on there. It says Future Primitive. I'm showing Chris the picture of the cassette. And it's, it's, I mean, it's, but it's basically the 16 stone album, but in a different, or slightly different order. Yeah, yeah. But it's still those tracks. It's still the same recording. Well, yeah. Everything's End, Swim, Little Things, Bomb, Testosterone, Come Down, Machine Head, Monkey, Body, Glycerine, and Alien. Yeah. Just to say, single title songs, absolutely the way forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Single title songs. Yeah. About seven minutes long. Probably the best. Seven minutes long. I'm with you. I'm with you. I think I like, I like, I like short stuff. So, so, so they've dropped. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So at this point, they've got 16 stone recorded. They've showed it to their record company. They've said it's junk. Gavin has gone back to being a painter and decorator. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just dicking about. And then, and then Trauma, who is another record company, because their manager, so the, the Bush manager was, he'd had some dealings with US record companies. Record company, so he's just kind of sending this thing out to everybody. Yeah. The only one that got back were Trauma, who were the tiniest of tiny record labels, imagine, literally two dudes who were surgeons who've quit and decided to start a record label. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the tiniest record label ever. All of their muscle and distribution is held by Interscope. So they sign acts and then they've got this relationship with Interscope where Interscope will distribute and, you know, put a bit of muscle behind it. So they sign, they sign Bush. No one cares. Interscope, no one cares. Trauma send a couple of the tracks out to the radio stations and then a couple of them catch and go absolutely bonkers. Then Interscope notice and start putting a little bit of weight behind it. At this point, Gavin's still painting dentist's office in London. So they drag him over to do PR and other bits and pieces and then it starts to snowball and becomes massive. Didn't say earlier that there was this thing about, you know, everyone, the songs were big. Yeah. And there was a sort of playground fight about where they came from because a lot of people. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people thought they were an American band. And then it was only when Gavin starts to speak that you realise he doesn't sound. He's definitely not from Seattle. And he didn't look like he was from Seattle either. He kind of maintained that British. He looked like a British punk band. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell you, when I first finished 16 Stone, I signed a deal with a small independent label in the Valley. Everyone was saying, do not sign, you know, from London a deal in the Valley. You're never going to see this guy again. I got to make the record. And then there was a tragic, the Frank Wells, who was the head of Disney and he had that Hollywood Records. And he died tragically in a helicopter crash. So they inherited the 16 Stone record that had like five number one records on it and sold, I don't know, 20 million copies itself. And they said, not only there are no album tracks, there's not only no singles on this record. There's no album tracks. And so we got dropped. So I went back to work and I painted 11 identical offices, dentist offices. Because I used to paint and decorate to make money, to make music. And there were 11 of them. So it was like a Kafka nightmare. During that four month process, I got a call. They said, your record is broken on K-Rock. I was like, that's great. What's K-Rock? So there we are, right? And now Bush are a massive. Loads of money is coming in. Album is like, you know, massive. It's selling like bucket loads of copies. Everyone's happy. Interscope are brilliantly happy because they're getting tons of cash coming in there. Trauma, who signed them, are getting this dribble of money. And they're like, hang on a minute. This is like the biggest album of the year. And they didn't get any money. Yeah. They wanted more money for signing. Interscope were taking their money for distributing. Yeah. So Trauma then took Interscope to court for, I think it was $100 million. Yes. I think it was settled in 2000, although it doesn't say how much. But it was, I mean, it must have been a significant amount. Yeah, yeah. But apparently Interscope were lying to Trauma about how much, how many copies had been sold. Wow. So imagine that it's like the biggest album. It's number one everywhere. It's huge. You've got glycerin in all the charts. And then Discope would go, yeah, no, it's not. Yeah, so it's also. Yeah. Hardly sold any copies. It's not really worth it. But I went down this rabbit hole with this, right? Because I thought, I wonder how common that is. No Doubt were on the same record label. They were signed by Trauma. They were distributed by Interscope. Exactly the same thing happened. Same thing happened. But Trauma didn't take Interscope to court. They took No Doubt to court for that one. And that was settled as well. Yeah. So the dentists. And obviously Gavin Rossdale and Gwen Stefani, they were an item for many years, weren't they? I don't know. No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't notice that. That's very interesting, yeah. It is? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. There we go. Boom. It was all down to Trauma. Fact. They are fact. I just think it's just, I don't know. It's just such a, I don't know. Like, you sum out, we've covered albums in the past. And we did Back in Black, right? And I thought that was a really interesting story. You know, the band kind of over pretty much. Yeah. Not happening. Yeah, the singer died. The singer died. It's like, no one was really sure what was going to come next. Replace the singer. You know, Brian joins. Doesn't really know what's going on. Same thing though, wasn't it? Yeah. Like, he was just at home doing jobs. Yeah, just chilling. Yeah, yeah. Mowing his lawn. And then, and then all of a sudden, just gets dragged down. Oh, can you? And then you're in. You're in the biggest band in the world. Yeah, then Back in Black comes. And you're like, oh, okay. So, but there are stories behind some of these albums when you get that. And, you know, there are others. I mean, Appetite for Destruction is probably another one where, you know, their band are kind of chaotic. It's like bottled lightning and trying to get them to, you know, pull things together and produce the record. This one is different to me. This one, like, there was no issue getting it recorded. The problem was nobody cared. And at any point, Gavin could have just, do you know what? Yes, leave it then. Let's just leave it. Let's just not bother. It's not working. Let's. Yeah. And he, but in every step, you know, being turned down by people, being told it's rubbish. There's a lovely bit in some of the interviews that you pulled where all of the British record labels are saying, well, you can't sing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are you doing? You mean, go and get a singer. Yeah. Because you can't, you can't sing. There's no, no one's going to pick this record with your wailing on it. It's not happening. And the press, the British press, like NME and Melody Maker, they ripped it apart. They were like, it's derivative. It's boring. It's like Nirvana light. It's, you know what I mean? And they were absolutely brutal about it. Yeah, yeah. And. And then come down happens. Glycerine happens. Yeah. I don't know. Like, imagine. It is, it is a band though, isn't it? It's a band where it didn't matter. Yeah. It didn't matter what anybody else said. Yeah. Because people got it. Yeah. Yeah. Eventually. Yeah. Yes. Eventually. People, people picked it up and people got it, particularly in America. I think it's that bit like getting to that part for me where, you know, sometimes like life feels really hard. And I'm sure Gavin through all of this was just like, I, I don't know whether, you know, I don't know whether this is the right thing. You know, I don't know whether I'm doing the right thing. Yeah. Or, or whether, you know, is this even, you know, is this a total waste of time? Yeah. Yeah. I suspect if he'd got like a, I suspect if he was a dentist. Yes. It'd have got, oh, do you know what? I'm just going to be a dentist. Do you know what I mean? Or if he'd been, you know, if he'd got like a, if his backup career had have been like more significant. And, you know, I just don't think he'd, it's really hard in that face. I think this album only came about because Gavin didn't have a fallback plan. There was nothing to fall back on. It was, do you know what I mean? It was either I'm going to be successful at music or nothing. And everything else that he did in life was just to enable him to make more music. Yes. Yes. And so it almost, like all of the negativity and all of the, you know, the people telling him he was rubbish. I don't know. I, I, I can't imagine for one second that that didn't have an impact on him because you can't have all that all the time. No. You know, and you, and you, we've, we've, we've heard interviews before. And I'm, I'm reminded of James Hetfield without, like his press was super positive about his voice and about Metallica. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he didn't feel it. Yeah. That he was a terrible vocalist. So, and we all tend, I think we all do that. I think, you know, we all think we're rubbish and, you know, you, there's that, I don't know. We're all our worst critic, I think, you know, I mean, I'm guessing there are, I'm sure like one or two people out there that are not. But I think in my experience, the vast majority of people are way harder on themselves than anyone around them. So Gavin's been like harder on himself. And then, and then the critics are like, well, you can't sing, you're rubbish. Songs are rubbish. Yeah. Not as good as Nirvana. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just go and do something else. Yeah. And yet still pushed on. I don't know. There must have been a real sweetness to it though. You know, when, when you get in your, your platinum albums, you know, you're, you know, you're in their hand over the gold and the platinum. You've got to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's crying now. There's got to be a bit of that. I think. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. There's got to be a bit of that. Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in. Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in. Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in. Tied to the wheel, a thing that's got to feel. Bleeding through a tautical smile. A spin on a whim, a slide to the right. I felt you like an electric light. For our love, for our fear, for our eyes against your ears and ears and ears. Got a machine head. Got a machine head. Out of red. Green to the red. Green to the red. Got a machine head. Out of red. Green to the red. Got a machine head. Got a machine head. Out of red. Green to the red. Got a machine head. Out of red. Green to the red. Got a machine head. Out of red. Green to the red. Green to red What I want from my machine What I want from my machine Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in Breathe out, breathe in Just don't feel it in Starting to deserve this Leading all my conscience to war Blood is like wine Unconscious all the time If I had it all again, I'd change it all Got a machine hair It's better than the rest Green to red Must in a hair Got a machine hair It's better than the rest Green to red Yeah What I want from my machine I want from my machine Got a machine hair It's better than the rest Green to red Must in a hair Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Got a machine hair It's better than the rest Green to red Must in a hair Got a machine hair It's better than the rest Green to red I'm a machine, I'm a machine, I'm a machine, I'm a machine. How do I make a rock record that matters, how do I make a rock record that anybody cares about, how do I get out to my audience, how do I be the father I want to be, how do I be the husband I want to be, you know, and combine all those things much like anyone else. It's a struggle to just fit it all in and figure it out. So I think that it's, for me personally, how it resonates is that it's about how to get things done and how to achieve the most possible because, you know, there's so many pressures and deadlines and get this right, get that right, and that's what it is for me, you know. Machine Head. Yeah. Good song. I like octaves. Do you? Yeah. Tell us more about those. So when you play a guitar, oh, there's a guitar here. Hang on. Are you going to do guitar playing? You're going to be like Rick Beato. Yeah, but it's not plugged in. Hang on a minute. So I'm going to get the, this is an electric guitar. Yeah. And I'm going to put it next to the mic, so. That's one octave. Yeah. That's another octave. Yeah. The same note. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. But they're two octaves apart. They're both E's. Yeah, but a bit higher. So that's when you play them both together. Yeah. And they're called octaves. I like that. And that's what you have in that song at the start. So earlier you said. Yeah. I like listening to this album because it sounds like the kind of stuff that you play. Yeah. And that's a big, a big feature of what I play, octaves. Ah. I play use them quite a lot, you see. That's very good. I enjoyed that. And now you know. Now you know about octaves. I want to talk about post-grunge. Yes. Can I do that? Yes. Post-grunge. So is this considered post-grunge? This is post-grunge. Yes. Now. It's got synth in it. You discovered that. That was post-rock. Was that post-rock? Yeah. If you've got post-rock, it's got synth. Post-rock has got synth synth. Now post-grunge is a bit, post-grunge. I was in the bath earlier arguing with chat GPT. As you do. Now chat GPT was like, this is post-grunge. Were you using Atlas? I've been using Atlas a bit, yeah. Was that for what this was with? No, no. I just got her on like voice. Yeah. So like I was literally, I was quite literally in the bath. I'd got, I'd got this album on. And I was on. Having a chat with the AI. So I put the AI on and I was just having this argument and like, I know this is definitely post-grunge. And I was going, well, what makes it any, I don't, why is it different to grunge? Explain to me the difference between this and grunge. And, and it comes down to, well, so I kind of get it. And I did read a little bit more about it afterwards, right? And I, it comes down to, so there's product, there's definitely a production difference. Yeah. So, but it's re, I would say it's, it's subtle, but it's noticeable and it's kind of smoother and more compressed. It's, it's, it's like a rock production rather than grunge, which is more punk production. It was dry. It was fuzzy guitars, but it was, but it was quite, it was cool to be out of tune and not have a chorus for it to be a bit spiky in places. And, um, and yeah, they had the big riffs, big fuzzy guitars, but there, there is a, uh, like a movement around grunge, which was a lot, a lot, a lot of similarities to punk rock where it was kind of like, you know, if, if it's commercially successful, you're dead. So if you, if you're not in this gang, you're doomed as well, you're doomed. You're, you know, that's that you're not part of the community anymore. Whereas post grunge, bigger, definitely choruses, more, um, more commercial, um, aspects to it. So by that, what I mean, it's kind of more poppy and hooky in places. And the production was, was bigger and, and rocket more like kind of heavy rock production. Yeah. You see, that's the thing is when I've always thought of Bush, I never even positioned him in my brain as a grunge band. No. And I don't with the pumpkins to be fair either. I mean, there were bits of it that were like the early stuff was, but they're a rock band that they say like Bush is a rock band to me. Yeah. That's what, that's what Bush sounds like. It's not, it's not a grunge band, which is interesting because, because of what was going on in England at the time, which was your Oasis and your blur and your Brit pop. And it was like semi-acoustic guitar, semi, sorry. Yeah. Semi-acoustic, semi-acoustic guitars with the hollow F holes and, um, you know, orange amps and late and Lainian high one, those sort of things. The, the, the American sound, which was more of you sort of Marshall, you Fender, you know, those kinds of rockier sort of sounding amps, Mesa Boogie, that sort of thing. You wouldn't see Oasis or Brit pop, but guys using a Mesa Boogie, whereas you would see Metallica, you know, the, like these guys perhaps using these, these, more of these kind of amps, like the Marshalls sort of thing. That bigger, thicker. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's why to me, the Brit, the British didn't get it because it wasn't the same like colour scheme, if you like, in tone. It wasn't the same palette. Um, whereas the Americans were very averse to, is that the right word? Averse, agreeable? Agreeable to, um, the, the, the, the, the, the, like more driven guitar sounds, not the Spy, not, not the orange or the AC30 kind of thing. I think, I think there's a couple of things going on here that I want to, I want to talk through a little bit. Yeah. So, um, and I think there's a lot of similarities, right? So in the UK, we, we didn't have this scene at all. We had Blur and Oasis, right? And that album, the album, the, the, certainly, um, what's the story Morning Glory was where the loudness wars started. Right. Yep. And it was, it, it kind of started because stuff needed to sound good on the radio. So the, the compressors were being wound up a little bit more and the volume was being wound up a little bit more. and stuff wasn't being cut to vinyl anymore or to analog cassette anymore. So it was going, you had more range. Yeah. It was going straight out to digital format. So you could, you knew exactly where the envelope edge was. So you could nudge it to that. Yeah. So that if, if, um, if like Pulp or Blur was played before your track. Yeah. And then, and then Oasis came on and it was, you know, two dB louder. Yeah. Your track would sound better. Yeah. Okay. And this was kind of happening in, in the, you know, in the UK and it was kind of, that's what was, what was driving the music here to some degree. In the US, the same thing is happening. Yeah. But it's happening on like American rock radio. Yeah. Okay. And so the same stuff is happening. If you, if you look at it, where the, the stuff that's super popular, like, like live and Creed and, and Bush and all of these big, thick, um, like American rock bands. Yeah. Yeah. They're compressed, they're compressed to be Jesus and the, and, and the volumes through the roof, cause they've got to sound good on, and they've got to sound good on the, the radio and, and cause that's where you're being broken now. You're not, you know, it's changed a little bit. You're not necessarily being broken on MTV. Although MTV still existed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. These radio stations were in the radio presenters themselves were kind of rock stars as well. Yeah. That's true. So you had Howard Stern. There was, there was an area, there was an area, wasn't there where the radio, the presenters were the rock stars. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, you've, you've got, um, you've got this, uh, environment, I guess, where, you know, uh, there are two scenes. So, you know, here in the UK, we, we got our scene and then in the, in the US, you kind of had this stuff happening. Yeah. Yeah. And they're so different that you don't, you don't really hear them, but there's one bit and there's another bit I was arguing with chat GPT about, there is one. Can you get, can you remember? It was in the crossover band. Can you remember there was a track? Okay. In the nineties. Yeah. One of them. Yeah. Sounded straight out of post grunge. Yeah. Okay. It was massive in the UK. Stilt skin inside. Stilt skins inside. Yeah. Yeah. Sound identical. You could pluck that and pop it into any of these records out of the, the kind of post grunge scene. Yeah. We loved it. Yeah. Lapped it up. Number one. Absolutely. For ages as well. Yeah. The rest of the record. Well, there wasn't a rest of the record. They'd only done this one single and then they very quickly slapped an album around it. Well, I don't even think there's a band. No, it was. I think it was Pete Lawler and then, and then they, and then they got the singer guy because the music. I'm looking. It's interesting because I can't find it. I was looking at, I was going to play you a clip. Right. And I can't find it. I can find it live. Yeah. I was in that song. Yeah. I thought it would have been on that. I've got inside live. It says top songs from the band Stilt Skin. Inside live, fly high, constantly footsteps, accidents, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but it's not there. And then I can see a copy of it from Ray Wilson. Yeah. Ray Wilson's the singer. He joined Genesis. That's like a live thing. It's all live. Oh, it is the right one. Yeah. But I can't find it. Yeah. So he ended up, he ended up singing for Genesis. There has to be. Oh, what? Yeah. But there has to be something going on with the rights. Yeah, it must be. Yeah. Because it's not, I can't find it on the stream ring. From what I remember, it was a Levi's advert. Well, he's like Levi 501 ad. Yeah. Yeah. And Pete Lawler, Peter Lawler. Yeah. He, I've actually spoke to him on the phone. So he wrote it. He, he, yeah, he wrote the song, but it was instrumental on the, on the album, on the, on the advert. And then it kicked off and it's like, it needs to be a band. Right. So they built the band around the advert. Yeah. If I've got my facts straight. The thing that I don't get. He did. He did as well. This orange advert, you know, orange mobile phones. Yeah. I liked orange. And it was around in the cinemas. This advert was, this particular advert. Orange Wednesdays, Orange Shoes. What was it? Do you remember those? Yeah, it was Orange Wednesdays. Yeah. And there was this particular piece of music that he did. Yeah. And it was beautiful. I can't, you know, it was just a bit of musical and advert, but it was so, so good. It's dead good, isn't it? Yeah. Now, riddle me this. Mm-hmm. why was that successful, but Come Down and Glycerine and, you know, little things. Why did we ignore all of that? But we lapped up. Still skin. Still skin inside. But only one song. Yes. Yeah. For the whole of the 90s, we had one post-grunge song that we liked. It sounded amazing as well. Oh, God, that was... The sound of Inside was just massive. It was, wasn't it? Yeah. It did sound incredible. And I think I love that sound. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes when I mix now and produce, you know, like, I can't, I, because I go for that big, that big sound and don't quite ever get it right, because I'm trying, everything's fighting with everything else. It's hard, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But it, but it, but it is absolutely, definitely post-grunge. Yeah. In the UK. Yeah. And we liked it. I don't know whether that landed, because it was Scottish, wasn't it? I don't think that landed in the US. No, no. Bizarre. Yeah. Proper bizarro stuff. I remember, because it was on Top of the Pops, wasn't it? Yeah. Ray Wilson had his furry hood on. He did. He had, like, a cloak with a furry hood on there. Is that a euphemism? Name me some other post-grunge albums, post-grunge band. Post-grunge bands? Yeah. So, what do you call live post-grunge? Yeah. Candlebox. I did like, uh, live. Silverchair. Silverchair, of course, yeah. No, Chachi, again, I was fine with Chachi Petit again. She said- Have we done Diorama yet? No. Oh, we must. We should do that. We can do an L7 next, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we've got a plan, but we could definitely Diorama after that. She said Collective Soul. Oh, Diorama might be too new. Oh, yeah. Might be. But she said Collective Soul. I like Collective Soul. Yeah. Not post-grunge. No, no. Stupid AI. Honestly, just like random crap. Not random crap. It's weird AI, isn't it? Skunk and Nancy? No. They have bits of it, but they were a bit, yeah. They were here, weren't they? They hopped around. Yeah, I wouldn't put them in post-grunge, so they were, I don't know. They were quite bitey. Yeah, they were quite bitey, yeah. Proto-grunge. What's proto? Proto-grunge. What's proto? Proto-punk rock. Oh, is it? Yeah, they were, definitely, yeah. What about if you had a band that was Proto-Toto? Oh, my God. Proto-Toto. I love that. Yeah. It's going to be done. Can I, can I, so, we've talked about it a little bit. We're talking about Britpop and that, but the press in the UK were horrific to Bush. They hated all of these, but it wasn't just Bush, they were horrible too. When I was reading this afternoon, they hated all of these bands. Right. So, you know, all of them, like, kind of, you know, like Live and Silverchair, Creed, there's a massive glut of these kind of American, like, American rock or post-scrunge. They lumped them all together and said they're all derivative and rubbish and they all wish they were Nirvana, but they're not Nirvana. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They should all just, like, pack it in. Yeah. Which I think is just, I don't know, I thought it was just, it's bonk. I mean, you look back at it. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, what was all that about? Yeah. It's all right to have an opinion. I remember my friend, he was like a Radio 2. Is it because they weren't Britpop, though? Is it that simple? I don't know. It could be. It could be. Like, I think there was like an anti-American thing happening around this time, from Musical.ly. Music, right, right. It seemed to be, certainly in the British press. Like it was cheesy or something. Yeah. It was like, it's too easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I remember my... Yeah, because Nickelback got absolutely... I mean, there's a little bit later for Nickelback, but they were... They had that song, How You Remind Me, didn't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was a massive song. It was brilliant. Yeah, yeah. It was so good. They got such good songs. And then everyone suddenly hated them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. They got too big, I think, didn't they? Like Coldplay got too big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a big fan of Coldplay, but they're brilliant songwriters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they are... They just got too big. And it's easy to make fun of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, which I think, I don't know. I think that is, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, where that goes? But yeah, certainly in the UK, we were not, the press were not, people, fans were there. Yeah, yeah. But nowhere near as big as they were in the UK. And you can see that from the release, you know, the release schedule. Like I would say, the vinyl never got released. There's a bunch of stuff that never got released here. Yeah, yeah. This stuff was released in Japan, in Germany. Yeah. But we didn't get it. We were, we were still obsessing over Blur and Pulp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Blur, not the other one, Blur and, oh God, my brain's gone. What's the other one? Not Pulp, the other one. Oasis? Oh, no. Oh yeah, Blur and Oasis. That's it, yeah, yeah. Suede? I liked Suede. Animal Nitrate. Suede were a bit punk-rocky, weren't they? They were, like, all the other bands were very, you know, like Oasis were very, you know, I don't know, they were rock stars, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were, like, throwing TVs out of stuff. Suede were the band that you thought, oh, they'd be really cool to hang out with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Menswear. There was loads of them. Yeah. Sleeper. Elastica. Oh, God, yeah, Elastica. Yeah. I want to move on a little bit as well. I want to talk about lyrics. Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. This album's full of bonkers lyrics. Yeah. And it was only when you go and look at the lyrics and then dig in a little bit, like, half of it makes no sense. Like, zero sense. It's just, like, that is so out of context. Some of it makes sense. And you think, I can see the parallels between that. There's, like, in Little Things, there's a bit where it says, the cupboard is bare, we really need food. Summer is winter and you always knew. And you think, well, what does that mean? Yeah. And then when you, oh, the song's about the relationship thing and that, oh, it kind of makes sense. But then the beginning lyrics make no sense whatsoever. And I found a lovely bit where Gavin talks about how he pulls lyrics together. And it's very David Bowie-esque. It's kind of, like, some of it's almost poetry. And some of it's, it just likes the words and needs to find a home for them. And some of it just feels right in the song. Yeah. And some of it are lyrics that fit the song. Yes. And they're all just in the song. Yeah. So from, like, verse to verse, you might be getting stuff that just he liked the sound of. Stuff he wrote, like, poetically that he kind of thought sounded cool and put that in. Yeah. And then a bit in there that he thought, you know, was absolutely about the song itself. I don't know. I'm trying to think of other songs. David Bowie is one that, he's the only one, really, that springs to mind that used to do that. But I don't know. There's just something. Pearl jams sometimes. I have no idea what he's saying. Yeah, Pearl jams. I have no idea what Eddie Vedder says, ever. Not a clue. See, they were a band. They were a grunge band that went post-grunge, weren't they? And now they're just, like, straight up rock and roll, really, aren't they? They're just a rock band now, aren't they? Yeah, rock, yeah. We've got to do an REM album. We must do an REM album. Do you know why? Do you know why we've got to do an REM album? No. Of course. Because it sounds a lot like Donald Trump singing. Genuinely. Like, stop the show. If you're listening, stop the show. Go and listen to REM. Play a Donald Trump interview. Yeah. They sound the same. And I love that. I just love the idea. I don't know. I don't know what's going to be. I've never picked that up at all. The universe has gone mad. Yeah. But yeah. Hasn't it gone crazy? Yeah, the universe has gone mad. Yeah. It's got Donald Trump singing on REM albums. And I didn't expect that. Did you? No. But he's there. Yeah. Yeah, he's there doing his thing. He's probably backstage. He's in the studio doing the best words. I would like to finish before we start talking about the next week and what we do. Yeah. I've not finished yet. I've got to talk about the artwork. Oh, sorry. I'm not ready. Sorry. I'm not ready. You've just... I just wanted to talk about Glycerine, though. Oh, go on. Yeah, I like Glycerine. Oh, it just is. So, Mike Tivy... Oh, yeah, yeah. Who I do... I've heard of Mike. You do painting with him, don't you? Painting with him. Yeah, yeah. We were actually... We were joining a Blood Bowl League. Oh, you said. Yeah. So, that's it. We're in. That sounds dangerous. Yeah, yeah. It's not... It's brilliant. It's like 10 quid a year. Yeah. And then you join the app. Yeah. And then you play games every month. Yeah. And then you leave. But I'm really bad. This is the problem. I'm not very good at these things. That's good, though, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we'll see how that goes. Anyway, Mike... Yeah. Brilliant singer. Yeah. Has this... Well, not so much now, actually. It's quite softened off now. Yeah. But back in the day when we were at college together... Yeah. He could sing. He had this voice. So, I think we should get in a band. I'll do the drums. Yeah. Not very well. Yeah. And Mike can sing the music not quite as well as he used to do. And you can show us how to play the E chord. Yeah. And it's going to be great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to be great. Yeah. So, Mike had... Yeah, he's kind of got more of a country sort of voice now. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose you'd say that. Like Taylor Swift. Like old. No, like old. Old country. Old country's like rock and roll, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a bit indie-er. Yeah, yeah. But he used to have a very grunge voice. So, Eddie Vedder, Gavin Rossdale... Do you think he could get that back? Yeah, I'm sure he could. Yeah, yeah, totally. But he... We're only having... He's only joining the band if he can do... So, he had... He sang Glycerine a lot. Yeah. And I never liked singing it because I thought he sounded better singing it. Oh, that's interesting. So, I like singing Come Down because I quite like singing Come Down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I wouldn't ever play Glycerine because Mike sounded better singing it and I liked it when he did it. There's a few songs like that that Mike sang, actually. Yeah. He did Tuesday's Gone by Lynyrd Skynyrd with Dan Baker. So, they used to play together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I preferred Mike's song version to the original. Really? Yeah. I thought it was pretty... The way he sang it, it's more like the Metallica version, but he sort of did his own thing with a little bit as well. Yeah. There's a bit of... Ooh-ah! Yeah. And then there were... Yeah, there were a couple of others as well. Black by Pearl Jam, he did really well. Yeah, there was a few. But anyway... He was just born in the wrong country. If he'd been born in the Pacific Northwest, he'd have been a megastar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you remember me telling this story about my friend who sang Seven Shikings and Blacks Out? Yeah. That's Mike. Is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Pantera? Yes. I didn't know that was Mike. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he said he sang it and then he had to... It blacks him out for a bit. He had to have a lie down. Yeah. Aw. Yeah. Bless him. It must be your skin, I'm sinking in. It must be for real, cause now I can feel. I didn't mind. It's not my kind. It's not my time. Don't wonder why. Everything gone white. Everything's grey. Now you're here. Now you're away. I don't want this. Remember that. I'll never forget where you're at. Don't let the days go by. Kiss of rain. Kiss of rain. I'm never alone. I'm alone all the time. Are you at one? Or do you lie? We live in a wheel where everyone steals. When we rise, it's like strawberry fields. I'm treating you bad. You bruised my face. Couldn't love you more. You've got a beautiful taste. Don't let the days go by. Could have been easier on you. I couldn't change, though I wanted to. Should have been easier by three. Our old friend feeling you and me. Glycerine. Glycerine. Glycerine. Don't let the days go by. Glycerine. Don't let the days go by. I... I... Glycerine, Glycerine Glycerine, Glycerine Bad moon, what a gun? I'm not one again, and she falls around me I needed more, who wanted us less Could not kiss, just regress It might just be, clear and simple or plain Well that's just fine, that's just one of my names Don't let the days go by Could've been easier on you, you, you Glycerine Glycerine Glycerine Glycerine Glycerine Glycerine Glycerine The artwork designed by Matt Cook now on the art world why does that name spring about i don't know it's other things probably one of your friends um uh but there's a bit it's like a crt like a cathode ray tube tv yeah and it's got loads of zeros and ones on there yes and apparently people have tried to decipher it for years and years and years thinking it's binary yeah um and i know about computers yeah it's not it's not binary no i don't know what it is it just looks like numbers to me um but interestingly somebody came out not that long ago uh and said that it is just numbers and it was just the aesthetic yeah there's like this and i like things like that i think they missed a trick though yes i think that would have been yeah it's kind of midnight it's kind of you know that kind of era when the matrix was like late nights when the matrix was kind of around and um this was obviously predates that but is that kind of era where hacking and the internet was like 96 the internet was starting and you know people were were getting online yeah you know you're getting adverts scaring old people saying get online or yeah yeah yeah but i don't know what you know where the album name came from allegedly there's two stories i've heard okay you tell me yours the story that i've heard is the one where it was something like one of the band members or one of gavin rossdale's mates i'm not sure which yeah went on a date yeah this is the same one um is it and and but the girl the girl like presented herself previous to him a bit yeah yeah and said that she was probably a little bit bigger slimmer than she was yeah yeah yeah and then she was 16 stone so they decided to know only only like rock albums do do you know what i mean like like that guy that guy would have been that would have been his nickname for like years yeah yeah it would have just been been abused yeah what's the other story then um it's similar it's it's a similar story but it's a it was about uh somebody else in the band it was somebody else in the band right right right yeah um where else did i get oh uh i wanted to talk about um the making of the album yes it was recorded in west side studios in london um recorded by clive langer and alan winst stanley who were famous for do you know oh no i don't know madness david bowie and morrison that's you see you wouldn't no you wouldn't put that together no it doesn't sit that doesn't compute that doesn't no it doesn't sound like it no i don't i don't but he wanted steve albini didn't he oh we don't know yeah he wanted still he wanted he was he went he went out for that he wanted that sound he wanted that nirvana sound he wanted the in utero thing and yeah but um because of the you just copied nirvana thing that wouldn't have worked no for this i don't think that i don't think this record would have been successful if it had that dry yeah uh do you know what i mean that kind of dry early nirvana sort of kind of bleach i don't think that would have worked um i mean i don't know maybe maybe i think it kind of works because it's got the big it's got the london sound yeah yeah it's got this big thick it doesn't sound like a london album to me no it sounds like a big fat american radio rock record yeah yeah that's what it sounds like to me again you know you grew up in london so you you you grew up through dub so dub music we lived in west london is all that whole notting hill with the carnival that sound you know all and in the great greatest record stores in the world with all the kind of jamaican seven inch singles all that stuff and then house music wasn't so i you know i wasn't so into house but but then you get it i like some of the techno like underworld is one of my favorite bands and they're incredible so that got me into a little bit techno and then you hit drum and bass and that went into jungle and then you got into you know now you have trap and you know things that go on it's just it's just always the evolution of dance is really interesting i've always been into that and aware of it and you know especially after you've made guitar music after a while sometimes you don't want to hear guitars you know it's the worst thing to hear you know i just think there's so much that all kinds of music has to offer do you know where the band name comes from no i don't actually shepherd's bush is it that simple apparently yeah um they were called future primitive yes their manager basically said that's shocking don't be called that don't be called that yeah and then they were all right then we need another name yeah and he was like you want a single yeah single word band name yeah and they were in shepherd's bush so they called the band bush other that was shepherd i suppose the rumor is that's where it came from um we already talked about it quickly that uh they were signed by trauma and then uh trauma had uh two acts really big acts bush and no doubt um and that uh that record label they went to court in 2000 and then went disappeared they were paid off basically disappeared off a planet both acts then landed with interscope um which uh yeah i don't know i think it's really interesting that's all i have got for this album other than if you've got a copy of it and you're in the uk and you want to sell it and you don't want a million pounds for it hit me up i can pay you in i like fruit pastels can we talk very briefly before we play the last song and then talk some more about the next week we actually doubled up tonight on fruit pastels oh we have yeah we've got two buckets of fruit pastels and four cans of i can't have two cans of diet coke i'll never sleep save those for tomorrow yeah and then the fruit pastels are for your bag for tomorrow they are i monday can be a difficult day for me yeah um because i i as we've discussed i work in the it and um computers don't break like it's like it's like kettles they don't break when you know kettles don't boil when you watch them yeah computers don't break when you watch them no so when when we're all there watching them and when you arrive on the monday do you know what i mean yeah you're like oh it's all gone broke oh and then so yeah there's always there's always a drama on a monday so um and i often get like it's two o'clock in the afternoon yeah i wish i've got some fruit pastels yes and you know what i've never got i've never got any fruit pastels and i'm too lazy to walk to the shop yeah so i just like i don't know the thing i like about it is that we've actually managed to get through the night tonight yeah without actually opening the second we'll have to hide the cans in here won't we we will have to do something because we've got like your people share this space and they'll steal our stuff yeah that's the way it is in the back of the cajon down there the what the cajon oh yeah yeah i know what that is yeah we could do that in that yeah because if i take them or behind you there's bongos we could put them in the bongos if i take these cans home i shall drink them yeah that's the way it is it only i've got no willpower so i'll get the minute the minute i have to deal with like some some stroppy tantrum from either my children or people i would just something will go wrong somewhere and i would just be like oh and then i think we should put them in the bongos yeah and then see if they arrive next week the thing is we'll forget because we're so like you know we'll forget and then like in two years time we'll be like oh there's cans of coke in here we should get sponsorship i think so if you want to sponsor us coke we're totally down for that yeah just that we only need a few yeah we don't want any money either yeah don't get any money just just send us like i know like i don't know like 30 cans i'll last us a year yeah brilliant and round trees send us some fruit only the black only the black and red yeah we don't want the other ones so if you do that yeah so we don't need money no all we need is is the the goods no well if you send us any money rachel reeves will take it but american she's our chancellor and she just she literally waits outside my house and takes my money as soon as i walk outside she puts her hand in my pocket and takes my money from me gone and use i don't know what she does with it no she's definitely not spending it on the roads no no i'd drive into burden upon trent today did you i didn't it was full of potholes yeah yeah they're not doing that right are they didn't like that staffordshire county council other councils are available yeah um i think we're done for this one i'm just looking down is there anything else i want to talk about i don't think there is um no i don't oh other albums released in 1994 there were some big ones yeah it's a big year wasn't it 94 so we got garbage garbage do one uh super unknown oh really stone temple pilots did purple yeah pearl jam did vitalogy which we've done already we've not done super unknown have we no we haven't done super nine i could do that yeah we haven't done any sound garden have we done sound no we haven't done sound garden at all we've got to do that then don't we that'd be good yeah yeah we could definitely do that um i like that that's like that's an album there are very few records where they don't get any criticism no you're like faith no more yeah a couple like that and then do you know i mean but there's albums yeah i don't know there aren't many that hold on where uh you you you yeah where people have either got a positive opinion or no opinion yeah yeah yeah um and i think super unknown is one of them yeah it's kind of one it's one of those you either love it no one no one's calling it are they no one says it's a bad album no no i think you you you i mean there are i think there are probably people that don't really get it yeah i mean it's not a particularly commercial record no it's not full of like hooks or pop melodies or anything but it connects doesn't it it's got this yeah it's got this very similar to like alice in chains for me in you know in that kind of it's almost the way it makes you feel yeah rather than the way it yeah yeah sounds if that makes sense that also gives it a timelessness as well for me yeah that's a really good point yeah those those records they kind of transcend a little bit but it is it is it's like um and like for me this is where there's a few bands i like there's like this is what makes slipknot good and bad that when slipknot are on form then there's quite menacing it's like being in a horror movie you kind of get this like i don't know like uneasy feeling you know the the album makes you feel a little bit yeah you know i'm about to be murdered yeah yeah um and they're really good at slayer were really good at that as well um i don't know but it is it's more about the way it makes you feel i remember listening to hella weights from slayer for the first time i genuinely feeling like do you know i mean this is i feel a bit i feel a bit freaked out yeah i feel a bit a bit unnerved by this yeah yeah yeah um and and i think like i mean alice alice in chains always makes me feel quite sad yeah um but but it but it is they make you feel these things you know like hair metal makes you feel like happy makes you feel kind of bouncy and i want to go and you know it is there's definitely a thing here where yeah you know the some of these albums like transcend you know like a van halen record just makes you want to gives you that interesting thinking with you talking about this with green day yeah nimrod yeah i had a moment yeah like that feeling you know the feeling that you're talking about yeah that one i almost felt like that was my last album with them right like after that yeah there was someone else's green day oh you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah the morning came out and it's like oh it's not it's not really not green day anymore yeah i yeah like for me green day was um mainly not even necessarily dookie yeah although there were a few songs on it yeah um it was it was kaplunk it was insomniac it was yeah they were those those that sort of era green day with yeah was the was the one that i really connected with and i remember having that feeling of going i think this is my last one with you it's funny isn't it what a strange thing but it's the way it makes you feel isn't it or it doesn't make you feel you know what i mean yeah it's one of the greatest all-time albums i like american leo's really fallen but it's for leo it's for the kids yeah yeah it's not it's not for me it's i do you know i'm the same i've really loved it i do you know this week i've been listening to young blood uh young blood's idols yeah album um and it's a great record i mean really yeah from a entertainment perspective it's a great record yeah really cool really interesting um some really cool um your concepts on there really cool songwriting on there um but it's not it's not yours no it's not it's not like it didn't make me feel anything no yeah that makes sense and i don't mean that in like a rude way like it was you know but it didn't connect with me i was able to see the value in it i guess i'm trying to think of the right the right way to describe it but i i had it with um damien rice's oh yeah it was one of the last ones and that's like that's getting on for 25 years surely now maybe more but that one that one was one for me where that was my that was my album that i connected totally with that with that record and there and there are a handful handful few more sins but it's just interesting the ones that you that you almost i can't even it's almost like they what's the word i'm trying to think of it's not like property but it's more like they're a part they're a part of you they do the albums become a part of you yeah it sounds so cheesy me saying that but that's what it feels like so it's it's i think for me it's that is that connection but it's the connection of the memory of how it made you feel yeah and sometimes it's uh just oh my god wow this thing yeah has blown me away yeah i mean the most recent for me with that was probably gojira yes where i didn't know about gojira particularly um i heard bits here and there and then sat down with one of their albums and was just like oh yeah and just like oh these you know like there's a bunch of bands like tesseract as well yeah it's true actually tesseract i had a bit with i had a bit with it i think you don't think you can really talk about very much now but brand new when they did science fiction yeah yeah it was incredible and obviously you know yeah he he was a very naughty boy yes but and and people don't connect with him anymore for that you know for the sort of things he makes them feel different yeah yeah but um that record for me was another one that sort of you know connected with and found a way into that but i think actually saying saying saying this now and then working it through and thinking it through it was after that time yeah where there was a blackened sky by biffy clio there was silver chairs diorama there was oh there was all the pumpkin stuff then i put the guitar up and started writing right and i think i was like that time that's the right so i've you know that stuff i've had that connection with yeah now i want to go i want to make some stuff do my thing yeah yeah yeah it is it is funny how um yeah this this stuff makes you feel stuff and it's interesting because you don't i don't know like like there's been very few albums that have connected with me like in the way that i was as a teenager these albums had a massive impact on me and they made me feel stuff yeah um whereas these days i generally just feel tired do you know what i mean yeah my back hurts yeah i've been i've been doing diy this week yeah so everything hurts yeah yeah and i i super glued myself to a step ladder i saw a youtube clip about a bonding wood yeah and i was trying to glue some stuff to some other stuff and i thought that's brilliant you put a bit of wood glue and a bit of super glue yeah and you stick it yeah and the super glue kind of holds it and then the wood glue gives you a stronger bond yeah youtube's brilliant yeah yeah yeah i did that right so i'm holding it with one hand yeah and unbeknownst to me i'd got some super glue on my other hand yeah and i'm resting my other hand on the step ladder yeah and i'm concentrating on the bit of wood yeah and i think yeah that's pretty good yeah and then i remove that hand and i think i've nailed this and then i go to move and the step ladder came with me so you're no longer connecting with albums you're connecting with step ladders and so i had to get some nail polish nail parnish remover and i'm like barney come help me and have a bath absolutely laughing his socks off yeah what have you done you dickhead glued myself to the step ladders there you go that's that but it but it's funny isn't it you don't i i i guess i genuinely feel it's not like i don't appreciate new albums because i do i think there's been some really great new records um but i don't i don't like a good example would be acdc power up yeah that was brilliant yeah such a good album if i want to listen to acdc i'm gonna like a highway to hell yeah black because of those there's a they make me feel a thing i remember a time or what do you know what i mean and it's yeah people i think people can be really derogatory about it like kind of oh you just only listen to old music and you're it isn't it's not like it's it's not like kind of gatekeeping or this you know i don't i don't um i don't know like like kind of outrageously anti-new yeah yeah yeah that's some amazing stuff loads of wicked stuff and it is amazing well i mean like i said the young book records it's awesome it's really cool really really cool he's getting um a hard time in the press about using auto-tune and stuff but and when and any and i'm sure you can hear it on the record but um he's using it live and stuff as well yeah yeah it's making people a bit grumpy i mean you should all just get over yourselves basically anyway he but it's great but it's not it doesn't mean anything i'm sure there's a small army of people that it does mean something huge too and he is interesting he was talking about how like early aussie and like suicidal tendencies and metallica and these they were bands that mean stuff to him yeah yeah um and it's just i don't know it's fascinating is that you there are points in your life where music does have a yeah bigger impact than others um yeah and i don't know that there are yeah there are albums certainly some of the albums that we've covered that are i can't imagine life without them you know i mean i just cannot imagine not being able to go and like pick up the black album yeah yeah um you're all like master of puppets or ride the lightning yeah or you know there are there are some of these albums that you you i just do you know i mean that i kind of think that you know life without them yeah you just can't can't even imagine it really no no no so we're gonna do next l7 l7 bricks are heavy yeah um do you know why i wanted to cover this next why um because it's about well i'll say it's about the same time similar time in u.s history um the production on this is dry as a bone yeah okay yeah punk rock yeah it was never really intended to be a popular record um you know it has that like f you punk rock attitude which is brilliant yeah um but i liked the difference between i think this is going to be quite good fun to kind of look at these records back to do you know what i mean back to about one of them obviously recorded in london but um yeah yeah very americanized um production standards and and song structure as well i mean it was almost written for american rock right yeah yeah bricks are heavy totally not that at all you know not it wasn't really written it wasn't intended to be you know have massive singles it wasn't intended to be uh you know let's say huge obviously everybody wants their music to be big but but it it was it there came from a punk rock yeah um yeah and uh uh perspective and i like the contrast um i listened to it this afternoon actually and it's it's it just sounds really good yeah yeah so it kind of rips your face off yeah yeah yeah it's got it's it's really cool really um yeah really really clever i think in the way the way the way it's the way it's written and produced um but there's like a savage energy to it um which i don't know i love stuff like this yeah i'm obsessed with the donnas at the minute as well right yeah yeah donna stuff as well i love that that's properly do you know i mean it's kind of simplistic and a rock and roll kind of just i don't know just real simplistic stuff uh and i don't know i i mean definitely here for that i like um you know i i kind of quite like that era where there was no auto tune really limited amount of kind of post processing and production um and it was yeah it was tricking through the desk and on the table wasn't it yeah it's kind of it was as much about your attitude and this kind of you know that the attitude kind of came out in the in the music and i love that i do think this that this the the thing with 16 stone although it was kind of quite heavily produced wasn't done to click i'd i'd i'd i'd be shocked if it was yeah i didn't i couldn't find much to say whether it was or it wasn't but it it speeds up and slows down and it's like i i'm pretty sure it wasn't done to to click and i think it um it it feels like it feels alive because of that whereas that young blood album idols it's perfect i mean utterly perfect there is not a bit on that album that is not perfectly placed perfectly produced yeah everything's exactly where it should be yeah everything sound you know the drum sound your every hit is like triggered it sounds exquisite as you as you listen to it um you know his voice sounds absolutely on it through every single part of it um and that's fine for taylor swift yeah yeah but it isn't and not yeah and taylor swift's a great songwriter right but that but that you know that that style of music i think benefits from that kind of yeah that process perfect production and i don't think rock music does no and so i yeah i'd be quite cool i think l7 bricks are heavy definitely is is way raucous it sounds quite good to me it sounds good it is very raucous very um live sounding almost um and i don't know i'm here for that i like those records yeah yeah i'm looking forward to doing um the donna's yeah does it spend the night i think it is right right right 2001 right so we've got a little bit of time to wait do it next year yeah i love that i really like that yeah yeah in fact i do that's what i could bend the rules for i like the donna do you know what i like about donna's is that no one cared about them yeah i mean it's like nobody was i think nick bryan produced them did he i think he's produced everybody nick bryan i think he did do the dollars yeah yeah there we go right you're gonna show is that it shall we yeah yeah done shall we let's what we'll do is we'll we'll do this again next week yeah but about l7 shall we do that let's do it and we probably won't do it next week we've been a bit inconsistent well i say it's all about you yeah so are you are you um no it's all right it was just these last couple of weeks there was too many things in my diary i do it every now and then i put too many things in i did it a bit today i've been in different places all day have you and like i don't know how you do it yeah i can do one thing a day yeah that's it no i do loads but it got to a point where the last couple of weeks yeah well i was like oh there's no space there's actually no space anyway to do anything can't do anything yeah so so next week in the weeks a bit like that but i think the weekend's clearer do you not get scared i get scared i think like if i've got like if i do two things in the day yeah i think what if i start the first thing and i get really stuck into it yeah and then i can't stop it to do the second thing what do i do yeah i can't do i can't i just can't cope with that yeah so i end up typically doing one one thing a day there's something really broken in my brain but that's how i think about the the days normally yeah one thing's a bit bit much i can do two two things no i've got this sort of thing where it's like oh there's four seconds there yeah i can do that i don't know how do you switch your brain like like my i like i'm still like tomorrow morning yeah i'll still be thinking about 16 stone yeah and it will take me a day to kind of actually we've moved on now to bricks are heavy i need to yeah i think you need to move on i think it takes me like it's so like that context switching that switching of what you're focusing on it like it's quite for me it's quite a slow moving machine yeah i mean it takes me a day or two to kind of get into it yeah but then once i'm into it that's it i'm there and i can't just i'm really envious of people that can just yeah do you know i mean just switch and yeah focus on something else yeah i can't do that oh i can yeah can you yeah apparently that's what makes good ceos does it yeah good ceos can can can just switch yeah from one topic to another yeah but it feels a bit like being electrocuted for me it's like if somebody forgot i work sometimes you get dragged if you get dragged if i'm focusing on one thing and then another thing is on fire yeah and you suddenly get dragged into that thing yeah and then you know you that ramp up yeah it has to be quite fast yeah i think it's because of teaching oh yeah i think it's because of teaching because you can't you can't dwell you have to you have to just switch you're currently doing yeah and that's like within the within the space of a lesson yeah you've got to do five things i i i find it really like most of my best ideas come to me like a day or two after i've started yeah yeah dwell on the problem and you kind of start to think and you know you'll be other things going on and then and then you just start to get a question well what is post grunge yeah what's that all yeah do you know i mean it's that kind of stuff and then and then you kind of go down the rabbit hole of it but it doesn't even occur to me for like a day yeah yeah and then even oh that's interesting and these things i think a lot of the ideas for me are subconscious like they kind of like just pop into your brain and when you're doing something else but and i think that's why i find um context i can do other jobs it's not like i can't do no but i can't i can only i can only focus like i can only really truly think about one thing at a time can't do can't do more than that no that's fair enough isn't it should we go see ya